Episode transcript
This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability.
Meet Pastor Phil Kerlin
Jaime Buxton: Have you ever looked at someone’s life and thought, I wonder how they ended up there? Perhaps it’s a woman standing on a street corner with a sign, a man sleeping in his car. Maybe it’s that same child that you see dropped off at school every day, disheveled and tired. Likely these stories feel different and far from your own life. But what if your knee-jerk reaction is wrong? What if these people we so quickly judge are more like us than we think?
This is the Not That Different Podcast. A podcast where we take a look at the stories behind the statistics of homelessness in Cleveland, Ohio. Because I believe that when we really start to listen and really want to understand, we’ll come to find out that people are more like us than we think. Individuals that are experiencing homelessness aren’t those people. They’re mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers. They’re our neighbors, the people God calls us to love.
Today we’re talking with a pastor and a leadership coach who works closely with The City Mission, especially with our executive team, through the EOS system, which we’ll learn more about. Through his experience in both ministry and organizational leadership, he shares why strong leadership matters and why partnerships between churches and ministries are integral and why he believes this work is worth investing in. I’m Jaime Buxton. I’m the senior manager of community engagement at The City Mission and it’s my joy to be able to be your podcast host and help you pull back the layers of homelessness and hopefully bring you to a deeper understanding of how we can love people better everywhere.
And so let’s jump right in. I’m humbled to be part of this podcast and excited to learn from our guest today, Pastor Phil Kerlin of Journey Church.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: It’s great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Jaime Buxton: Absolutely. Let’s not talk about how many outtakes that just took to get us here. So, I’m sure you’re thinking, “What am I doing here?” I know how to talk on camera. So, thank you so much. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to be here.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: It’s a privilege to be here and I’m excited to be a part of the conversation today.
EOS and strong leadership
Jaime Buxton: Awesome. Well, first tell us because I said it and secretly I do know EOS. Don’t get scared. Our executive leadership team is doing a good job. But for our listeners who might not, tell us about EOS and how that got you connected to The City Mission.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Absolutely. So, EOS is an acronym. It stands for the Entrepreneurial Operating System. It’s a way that teams and organizations, businesses approach how to get things done. I mean, the truth is all of us at home, at work, church, nonprofit, for-profit, all of us have a way by which we do what we do. The question is, is the way we’re doing it effective? Is it helping us to maximize the God-given talents and abilities that each of us have and the teams that we have around us?
And so, the real power of EOS, of this model, is what we call rocket fuel. You have your senior visionary leader, often times the CEO or the lead person on a team, and then you have an integrator. And that person is, literally as the name suggests, the person sort of making it happen. They’re an extension of the visionary, helping to provide leadership and direction, ultimately to create traction for the team, focusing on the right people doing the right things, focusing on the right processes, identifying any issues or roadblocks, ultimately moving towards solutions that help us as teams and organizations be effective and to maximize our efficiency along the way.
Jaime Buxton: Awesome. Great job. So, tell me though, I think because we’ve been doing EOS for a couple of years here, and I’ve been able to share with other organizations that’s kind of our mindset and how we’re moving things forward. I’ve had a lot of pushback from other organizations like us going, “That’s not for nonprofit world.” But here you are a pastor, and you’ve been our big coach in this. So, tell me how that landed for you.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Yeah, absolutely. So, it’s an approach to organizational leadership that our church, Journey Church, started experimenting with several years ago. Worked with an implementer, and he helped us to see that yeah, although EOS in its purest form is meant for-profit businesses and teams, there are redeeming principles that help to maximize effectiveness even in a nonprofit space, a church, or a place like The City Mission. Because at the end of the day, we want to be good stewards of what God has entrusted to us, the money that people bring to us or contribute to our organizations, the people that God sends to us.
And while we may as nonprofits not be chasing a bottom line, trying to maximize some sort of profit margin, we are at the same time trying to serve and reach and care for as many people as possible. And so, you know, we measure what matters, and we bring focus and clarity to what’s most important. So, why not use a proven model and system, redeem it with kingdom principles, and allow us to be effective in what we do as nonprofits, as churches, as, you know, The City Mission.
Jaime Buxton: Thank you. Yeah. For the record, I love it. I love a good rock. I love a good quarterly rock and a checklist. I love it.
Why invest in The City Mission?
Jaime Buxton: I’m all in. So, because of your coaching and because you’ve been able to come alongside our executive leadership team, you’ve spent some pretty consistent time. Why do you believe this ministry, meaning The City Mission, is worth investing your time and your expertise.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: It’s proven over decades, many, many decades. It’s proven to make an impact, not just on our city, city that I know and love, and I’m sure many of our listeners do, right? Cleveland, Ohio. But also just the people that make up that city. There’s a passion and desire on the executive leadership team, and really everybody that I’ve met at The City Mission to just serve our community, serve our city, meet people where they are, and provide them with the resources, the tools, the support, the encouragement that they need.
And the thing I love, man, maybe most about the leadership team that I’ve been partnering with and investing in and coaching is like they’re just real people. Like what you see is what you get. There’s no fluff. There’s no bait and switch.
Jaime Buxton: Right.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: They’re not trying to sell you one thing and do another. I mean, every single person that I’ve connected with, whether it’s Linda, the CEO, or you know, John, who’s behind the scenes and as the CFO, or I mean, Lauren, who’s the glue that holds the whole thing together as the, you know, executive admin support. Everybody that I’ve connected with, people at the front door, what you see is what you get. And to me, that transparency, that consistency, that authenticity is something I want to be a part of.
It’s something if I have a skill, a passion, I want to be able to partner with good people who are doing consistent good work to serve and care for people the way Christ has taught us to do throughout scripture, and the way that we read, you know, in the Bible. We’re supposed to love, you know, the least of these. We’re supposed to not walk past people when they have need. And when the issues in an L10 meeting, EOS terms there, for the leadership team of The City Mission, when the biggest issue is how can we do better to help more people, sign me up.
I want to be a part of that.
Listening and responding to community needs
Jaime Buxton: Ugh, I love that. Thank you so much. I’m sure as a pastor, and you’ve been in the city for a long time, you see a lot of nonprofits, so thank you for choosing to invest here. What makes The City Mission different? And I’m not saying better than, because there’s a lot of great work being done in the city, but what makes The City Mission different from other organizations?
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Two or three things come to mind, Jaime. Great question. Clarity and focus. There’s different expressions of who The City Mission is. They’re not an organization though they’ve been around a long time. They’re not set in a certain way of doing things. That being said, they’re true to some of their foundational principles that I’ve learned along the way, but if the need is men, Crossroads. If the need is women, children, Laura’s Home.
You know, there’s different ways, not just one singular way and I think a lot of times nonprofits can get so inwardly focused on building their own platform or agenda or team or organization. And there’s honestly not even anything wrong with that, right? You’re you’re trying to be clear on who you are and do what God’s called you to do, but I love the multiplicity of which The City Mission serves the city uniquely based upon what needs may arise.
I was driving in today and I saw on the sign, “Hey, desperate need of shampoo and deodorants and toiletries.” Like, “Okay, that’s the need right now.” So, yeah, I mean, The City Mission is different because it responds to the needs that avail themselves rather than trying to be a one-stop shop for all things. They’re trying to say, “What’s the need and how can we respond to it?”
Jaime Buxton: I totally agree with you. And, you know, kind of going back to what you just said about our leadership team, I think that’s exactly who they are. They know who we are and who God has allowed us to be for 115 years,
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Amazing.
Jaime Buxton: We also are paying attention to the needs around us. And, I think that’s so important that we’re listening. We’re We’re We’re an organization that is listening to the community around us and then trying to move. What other strong leadership or characteristics do you think that we need to have in leadership in a ministry, anywhere, not just here?
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Absolutely. I mean, here’s the thing. City Mission gave me an opportunity to help some of their key top leaders brainstorm, prayerfully discern, discuss how we expand our reach? How might we best utilize our campus? What if we did this? Could we do that? What a joy it was to spend that day with that diverse team of leaders talking about campus expansion, ministry expansion. I answer the question this way because I think one of the most important leadership principles that we need to lean into is a willingness to listen to the ideas of other people who may not normally have a seat in the room.
I love a good lead team. I love a good, you know, leadership executive team, absolutely. But that moment in time, that meeting when we had different cross-sections of people from different expressions of who The City Mission is, that was like a wow moment for me. I said, “See, The City Mission gets it. They’re not just top-down, executive team says this is what we’re doing, so let’s go get on board and do it.” They invited the right people.
Secondly, I would say they leveraged resources. I think as leaders, we need to leverage the resources around us. And one of your previous podcast episodes, Sam was able to share a little bit. He actually was in that same room. And he had done a ton of research and used his skill set to do a deep dive on like what’s going on in the city of Cleveland and what maybe could The City Mission do to serve the community as they expand their reach?
So, I love that it wasn’t a closed-minded, closed-door, executive leaders only. As leaders, we need to be willing to open our minds and our and our and our ears to the ideas of others around us, whether they’re experts, whether they’re frontline workers. I think we all as leaders could do well being more open-minded. Being slow to move. There’s something about being decisive. Don’t get me wrong. But the fact that The City Mission team as leaders has taken their time to research, to pray, to discern, to discuss.
They’re not just running into the next opportunity. They’re waiting on the timing of God. They’re waiting on resources and strategy and vision to all come together. We as leaders, me as a leader, I could I could learn from that and I’m grateful that I’ve had the privilege to do so.
Partnerships between churches and nonprofits
Jaime Buxton: Thank you. Wow. I’m starting to think this podcast is turning into, “Hey pastors, listen to this one.” Because this pastor thinks we’re great. So, appreciate that very much. But in that vein, really, I know you know, in my role in community engagement, it’s my joy to get to serve churches and to get to talk to pastors and to understand what they you know, want for their church and how we can collaborate together.
What does a good partnership look like between a church and a nonprofit like us?
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Absolutely. Great question. Starts with prayer. All good things in my mind start with prayer. Starts with authentic relationship, not transaction.
Jaime Buxton: Right.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: It’s not like, “Hey, we’re just looking for another partner as a church.” Trust me, there’s a lot of great, like you said, organizations, nonprofits to partner with. But when there’s like-minded people working together, man, you can never underestimate what God could do through that. I know for me, it’s I’ve heard it said and it’s something I subscribe to, I just really want to build something I love with people I love for people I love.
And so, when you have you know, people at The City Mission, people at Journey Church that you can grab a cup of coffee and you can pray together, you can brainstorm together, you can problem-solve together, a good partner shows up. A good partner stands with you in prayer. A good partner takes an interest in what you need. It’s not one way. It’s not like, “Hey, Journey Church, we need you to keep helping The City Mission.” It’s like, “Hey, how could The City Mission help Journey Church?
How could The City Mission come alongside of what you’re doing? What are your prayer requests? What are your prayer needs?” And so, I think a good partnership it’s two ways. It’s both ways. It’s not just, “Hey, we need you.” But it’s, “What could we do together?”
Jaime Buxton: Yeah. So, this question is a little self-serving then. What are the ways that nonprofits, you know, like The City Mission could come alongside a church? What are things that I mean, because you know, because you’re privy to some of the things that we’re doing. What are some ways that nonprofits can go to the church and help you in educating or advocacy or whatever you think?
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Absolutely. You know, sometimes even in a city like Cleveland, the needs that seem so apparent and real to us seem so far off from the people in our congregation.
Jaime Buxton: Mhm.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: I mean, we have a location in Avon, Ohio. We have one in Twinsburg, Ohio. I mean, my kids go to a school in Bay Village, Acton Academy, who I know is partnered with The City Mission over the last few years. And so, it can feel like the needs are so far away and inaccessible. But when a person like yourself, Jaime, or a representative from The City Mission can show up at a church and say, “Here are some needs and some real practical, simple ways that you can get involved with helping.” I think it broadens the perspective of young and old in a church.
One of the coolest things that a church could benefit from a partnership with The City Mission is seeing children and parents serving together.
Jaime Buxton: Mhm.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Right? A lot of times it’s like, “Well, adults do that and kids are too young.” But seeing like our kids ministry and our adults, their parents come together and serve at whatever outreach or event there may be, it allows accessibility and it normalizes what we read in scripture, right? Helping the least of these.
Jaime Buxton: Right.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: And not everybody can go on a missions trip overseas. I’ve done that plenty of times, that’s amazing. Some people, that’s not their next step. Some people’s next step to live out what Jesus Christ taught us to serve the least of these, that might be driving downtown and helping out at a City Mission event. That might be just gaining awareness about what’s really going on because it’s really easy in 2026 to live in our bubbles.
In the suburbs on the west or the east side of, you know, the heart of Cleveland. And so just education, turning over the leaf and saying, “Hey, here’s what’s really going on. I know you maybe don’t see it every single day, but just 15, 20, 30 minutes away from you, there are real needs with real people that quite frankly are not that different than you are.”
Jaime Buxton: Right. You just nailed that.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: See what I did there?
Leadership that shows up
Jaime Buxton: I really appreciate that. Thank you, Pastor. So because of your work with our leadership team and getting to understand, you know, who we are, what are what are some examples you’ve seen in other scenarios and other organizations where healthy leadership directly impacts the people that are being served.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Mhm. Healthy leaders take an interest in the people that they’re serving. I said it a few minutes ago. It’s it’s not a transaction. It’s not a check it off my to-do list. It’s not like, “Ooh, I did a good thing, so now I feel better about being a Christ follower.” I think healthy leaders show up. I think healthy leaders are consistent. And you know, I think about just in my own church, we partner with the Cleveland Food Bank and the Cleveland Book Bank.
And every single month since before the COVID pandemic, we do a food distribution. Fresh produce, books for kids. And I just think showing up consistently, not expecting anything in return. Maybe they’ll end up at our church one day, that’d be great. But it’s not a growth strategy.
Jaime Buxton: Right.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: It is a, “Hey, Jesus Christ said to serve the least of these. And how can we as a church partner with the Cleveland Book Bank, the Cleveland Food Bank, The City Mission, you name it, to just meet the needs of people? We have a volunteer army at the church. We have space. Why don’t we come together, use what we have? What do you have? We’re better together. We’re stronger together.” So, that’s one example that comes to mind is just showing up month after month, before a pandemic, during a pandemic, still after a pandemic.
Showing up in practical ways like toys at Christmas. That’s something that the people of our city look forward to. And Journey Church has been very generous to show up in that kind of a way. And showing up. When leaders show up consistently with no strings attached, that to me is the real impact that you’re making because there’s nothing that person can do for you. You’re just doing it for them out of the love and the goodness of your heart.
Faith, strategy, and stewardship
Jaime Buxton: Thank you. I think this one is you’re probably going to get really excited about. So, just fair warning. What would you say to someone who thinks strategy, leadership systems, or operational structure don’t matter in ministry?
Pastor Phil Kerlin: You’d be crazy.
Jaime Buxton: I was going to say, are we are we going to see fired up Pastor Phil right now?
Pastor Phil Kerlin: So, I’ll tell you a quick story. Most of us maybe probably are familiar with the story of Jesus feeding the 5,000. What’s interesting, my take, first of all, there weren’t 5,000. They only counted men. They didn’t count the women and children. Conservative estimates, there was probably 15 to 20,000 people. Secondly, Jesus didn’t feed them, the disciples did. Third, it’s fascinating to me that Jesus has a strategy, right? He says to his disciples, “Sit them down on the green grass in groups of fives, 10s, 50s, right?” And it’s just like they had no sound system.
They didn’t have a microphone or a speaker. They probably didn’t have a bullhorn back then. It took strategy, coordination, some sort of system, leadership. I’m sure some of those disciples had one idea and another one had another idea. I’m sure there was probably some infighting, some preferences, some opinions. They had to work it out and remember what’s the goal here? The goal is to be obedient to our master and to serve people.
I think the Bible is chock-full of leadership systems and strategy. Where did the 12 baskets come from, right? In that miracle, there’s 12 basketfuls of leftovers. Where did the baskets come from? Who had them? How did they organize them? I think a good system and strategy is not only important, but I think Jesus taught us a good system and a good strategy and a good structure helps us to steward well. If you don’t have a system or a strategy, you can still do some things, but if you want to steward well, be effective, and use what God has entrusted to you for the greatest impact and return, you better have a leader, a system, a structure, and a strategy.
Jaime Buxton: And so for the naysayers who are like, “Does he have any faith? Like does he not trust? He’s always talking about leadership.” I know I know that you do. But like so on the flip side of that, how does your faith then fall into that leadership?
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Absolutely. It’s not either or, it’s both and. Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we cannot see. That’s what Hebrews 11 tells us. And you know, one of the things I teach our leaders, you know, at our church and other leaders that I coach is that it’s it’s people over process every time, or else it’s problematic. I tell them, “It’s spirit over system, structure, and solutions, or else it’s going to be sinful.” So it starts and ends with faith, but at some point your faith has to be put into action.
Right? You can believe all day long, but somebody had to pass the food out, and they had to do it in some kind of way. They had to believe by faith that a miracle could happen, in this case the feeding of the massive crowd, but without faith, right? It’s impossible to please God. 1 million percent faith is the starting and the end point, but right there in the middle of those two important bookends, faith at the beginning, faith at the end, is a system, a strategy, a structure.
And I believe I’m a spirit-led strategist. That’s how I identify myself. I’m a spirit-led strategist. I have a strategy and I have a plan, but I hold it like you would an egg. I’m sure we’ve heard this analogy. Tight enough not to drop it, but not so tight that you crush it. So like I go into a service, I go into an event, I go into an outreach, I go into a meeting, I go into a coaching session with a plan.
But at the end of the day, I’m spirit-led. I have faith. What is the need of the person, the team, the people that I’m serving? And Lord, how do you want me to respond to that? We have to, as leaders, come in with a system, a strategy, a structure, a plan, but we can’t be ruled by it. We can’t drive or railroad our agenda. I have one, but I’m holding it loose because if the Holy Spirit or the Lord tells me to lean in this direction or the need is this, I’m going to quickly pivot and respond according to what the needs are in that situation.
Taking the next step
Jaime Buxton: You did not disappoint, Pastor Phil. You said, “I’m Phil, Phil-in Kerlin.” And I just feel like mic drop. I don’t even know what to say. But yeah. So, if someone was wanting to learn more about EOS or get, you know, even get your opinion on things, is there a way they can reach out to you? I want to give you the little fair plug in.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Yeah, no, for sure. They can reach out to me. So, I’m a pastor at Journey Church. The first thing I would say is read the book What the Heck is EOS. And then I would suggest the book by Gino Wickman, Traction. Grab a hold of those two books so you know what you’re getting yourself into.
Jaime Buxton: And what if people were to ask you, “What do you think about The City Mission? How can I get involved? What should I do, Pastor Phil?” I mean, you’re going to say call Jaime, I know. But would you encourage them? How would you encourage them?
Pastor Phil Kerlin: I would say, “Don’t just take my word for it. I first-hand have served at The City Mission before I was ever a coach or you know, a partner. As a person, I served years ago and still try to today.” So, I would say don’t take my word for it. Just give it a try and see for yourself. So, look for the opportunities that are available on their website. Absolutely, reach out to Jaime.
Pay attention to what you see, especially, you know, at those critical moments in the calendar year, right? Back to school, holidays, different things like that, winter months.
Jaime Buxton: Mhm.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Just try it. Grab your kids, grab your friends, grab your small group community. Go try getting involved in something and see for yourself that the return on an investment of your money and your time and your energy is worth it. And I believe, because I know myself, that you’re going to want to do it again and again and again because, like I said earlier, it’s a proven, been around for over 100 years organization, and they do things with excellence.
They do things well. So, take a step. In a concise way, I’d say, take a step, get involved, see for yourself.
Jaime Buxton: Wow, people are going to think I paid you to say that. So, but I didn’t.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: No. You didn’t pay me anything. Hey, what you see, what you hear is what you get with me. I don’t blow smoke. But, Kerlin stands for kindness, encouragement, respect, love, integrity, and never quit.
Jaime Buxton: Ooh.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: Those are the six core values of the Kerlin family. Ask my kids, my wife, we celebrate and we discipline to the core values. So, integrity is really important to me. You didn’t pay me to say anything. I truly believe and mean what I said, and I hope that our time together helps somebody to take a step and maybe invest a dollar or two or 10 or invest an hour or two or 10 and see the impact that you can have in just even a small simple way as you partner with The City Mission.
Jaime Buxton: Thank you so much. I really, really appreciate you giving up this part of your day to be here to talk and to really share. And thank you for coaching our executive leadership team. Like I said, I am loving the outcomes. I’m loving kind of the forward movement. As someone who’s been here for 20 years, it’s been really exciting to see how we’re able to push things forward and more productively over these last couple of years.
So, thank you for your investment in us. I am reaping the benefits of that.
Pastor Phil Kerlin: You’re so welcome. Thank you for saying that. I’m grateful to Linda and the entire team that continues to allow me to do something I love and something I’m passionate about to help us to be effective as leaders.
Jaime Buxton: Awesome. Thank you for joining us for Not That Different. We hope that this episode resonates with you. We hope that it gets you excited about leadership, about volunteering, about listening to the call of the Lord in your life. You name it. We kind of hit them all today. So, if you got excited about the work here at The City Mission, you can go to our website at thecitymission.org and look for ways to connect.
We hope that you will like and subscribe and catch us on the next episode. Thanks.